Memory and Tolkien
Two Part Podcast with Kevin Lucas and Mia Burke
listen here
transcript part 1
Mia:
Today on the B+PC Podcast, my guest is Kevin Lucas, entrepreneur, philanthropist, advocate and my friend and most importantly, fellow Tolkiendil. In the December edition we’re exploring all things memory and tradition. When talking with collaborators for the edition, Kevin and I connected (more like geeked out) over what Tolkien did for us as children- specifically the world that he created that gave us a sense of adventure, belonging, and escape during the darker days of our youth. Welcome Kevin.
Kevin:
Thank you Mia for having me. I’m super excited to be here today!
Mia:
I'm glad you’re here too. I’m excited to meet a fellow person who loves Tolkien and his world as much as I do and I'm really looking forward to diving in and get the meat of memory and just the world he created and what it meant to us, especially as kids.
Kevin:
Yeah, absolutely! I always think it's so funny when you find people, and especially for me to find, kind of the...who likes Tolkein as much as I do. BecauseI know when I was a kid, and just obsessed with Tolkein and The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings at that time period there weren't a whole lot of girls who were interested in that as well. So getting to the to meet people who are so fascinated and interested is always so special, but even more so when it's a girl. So when it's the rarity that it's a woman.
Mia:
Awesome! I'm glad to represent! So let’s jump in. So, what was it that drew you to into Tolkien? What is it that draws you to it as a kid? What is it that you're still connecting with?
Kevin:
You know, it's really is such a very, very special thing for me. We’ve had conversations about some of the challenges that we had as children. For me specifically, for about a year of my life I was very severely sexually abused on a daily basis at the daycare that I was attending before and after school. And what Tolkien was for me, my introduction to the amazing Mr. Tolkien, mine was The Hobbit. and I was so it was right after it was a new school after I had come to the kind of the completion and then being rescued from the abuse that I was going through I'd have multiple surgeries to fix things it was just really very challenging so is going to the school called The Orchard Center and Elementary School have this really amazing reading program. And so what it was it was called Roaring for Reading, because the mascot for the school was a lion. And if you read 500 minutes in a year at the end of the year they have a very special day where the people who accomplished that goal were invited to watch a movie, have pizza and ice cream for the day. So you got to leave the classroom in the morning, go watch this movie, have pizza and ice cream, and come back after lunch. Then you’d come back after lunch and finish watching the movie. And that movie was The Hobbit. Up until that time period, I don't think that I had really been exposed to any kind of the Fantasy World genre outside of He-Man and GI Joe and that stuff as a kid. The cartoons. But really, The Hobbit was the first, “This is so different. There's something so special and so unique about this!” And so for about two years in a row that I was attending this school that was the whole goal of the end of the year, was to get to watch The Hobbit.
Mia:
That’s so awesome! So you’re obviously a Gen Xer like I am, your age group is... We’ll be more talking about the books and the older movies as opposed to the Peter Jackson films.
Kevin:
Correct.
Mia:
Ok, I feel like I need to orient our listeners to that. So watch out! Two Gen Xers in the house!
Let’s talk a little bit about what is it specifically, whether its thematically or the characters or just the story in general or the specific plot, what is it that draws you to The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit?
Kevin:
I really think the most important thing that stood out to me was the idea of unexpected heroes and unexpected mentors. Here you had Bilbo, who was this tiny little creature living his life, and not wanting anything abnormal to happen. And all of a sudden, is caught up in this giant adventure. And then as he's going through this adventure, becomes the primary hero. And something that was so significant within this subject or within this dynamic, was being a Gen Xer in that time period, the heroes were all big, giant, strapping manly men. If you look at the movies at the time, you have Conan and Chuck Norris, and you saw Arnold Schwarzenegger and all of these men were giant, massive, bodybuilding superheroes essentially. And really what was so fascinating and so different is that you have this little Hobbit helping to save the world. I really connected with that a lot because it helped me feel as if you didn't have to be this giant, massive superhero with these extraordinary strengths or powers to be able to have an impact.
And the older I get and every year I read the books and watch the movies and look at this more. And as I become more committed to my faith, the more I realize how that’s the most important part to being human. It's not removing the idea that we could be helpful and of service to people if we’re not a gazillionaire like Elon Musk, or if we're not some giant hulking, massive, manly man to come in and rescue the day. It was so different, is what really stood out to me.
Mia:
That’s awesome. It brings to mind Ecclesiastes 3:11, which I believe says, “He placed eternity in man's hearts.” I think that He place has that whole idea of a bigger story. And that you and I are a lot alike, and that is what attracted me to the story- being a part of something bigger than myself. And the escapism that provided for me in dark times of going through -there's another world that I can safely live through Bilbo or Frodo.
When we were talking the other day you had a really interesting thing to say biblically: What does that bring up to you? That whole idea of story, with some of the biblical stories that we were talking about.
Kevin:
I think from a from a story perspective all of us are living these really unique lives and I think so many people can get under this false idea that they don't have a story- that what they're doing doesn't really matter, that who they are in this life is not someone special, is not someone who's doing something special and none of that is true. And I believe that to be true. In my private practice work with thousands of people and I've listened to literally thousands of people's intimate stories and if you were to have them talk about their life it's like its own amazing novel. That you're getting to listen, to observe. But to them, they're caught under this yoke and this ideology that under the side that what they're doing is not important and what they’re doing is not special. So when I look at stories in the Bible, when I look at the stories and the escapism (the word that you used a little earlier) to find peace, to find security, to find safety in that alternate world into that alternate place,
I think that's why story is so profoundly powerful and why we’re all so interested in it. I don't think it's a coincidence that people tend to either be obsessed with athletics and watching football, four football games a week or watching these stories and these programs about a different world, a different planet, in a different place, or a different setting within the normality of being human in modern days. But the reality is that story- everybody has one and I wish more people could really tap into understanding how God is helping craft their story and if they were to just really dive full in their story is just as powerful as any other person’s on the planet.
Mia:
I like what we were talking about earlier, David and Ruth and some other people and what seemingly was an insignificant story actually had major Impact, not just on themselves but on the meta-narrative of the Bible and on history. Can you tell us about that a little bit?
Kevin:
Yeah, you know, something that so many people don’t understand is that the generational impacts that every person has on the planet. That you drop the pebble and it ripples and it creates endless ripples. And most of the time people are caught in the negative aspect of generational impact. So, for example, my family's claim to fame was that we have family members who were part of the Hole in the Wall Gang during the wild, wild, west- criminals. In fact, a lot of my family members struggled with addiction, and alcoholism and jail, so the generational story that keeps getting passed on is, “You’re going to be a criminal of some degree. You’re going to be controlled by alcoholism and addiction and poverty.” So a lot of people stay stuck in that, not realizing that generational dynamics and the impact- that they can choose what that’s going to be. That they can choose to continue to facilitate those negative patterns into their children or grandchildren and so on. Or if they wanted to become a hero within their own world, their own story, And be a hero for their children, and if not their children, maybe it's someone else or who that needs to be.
But really embracing the fact that I believe we’re here, one, to be of service to other people. Now how we can be of service is with the gifts and the talents that God has given us when we were conceived, “He knew you in your mother's womb.” So many people are stuck in a place where they don't embrace their gifts, they wish they had somebody else's gifts, and then they stay stuck in that place and they pass on to their children through their example, these limited worlds that they're living in. They go to work, come home and watch football. They go to work, they come home and they watch Desperate Housewives of Atlanta or whatever it happens to be. And so a lot of people want to be the heroes in their own story, but I think their belief isn't there that they can and that's what I hope to help people with the most in all of my work. Really wanting people to realize that what you're doing, whether you think it's small or big, God has intended for it to be bigger than what you could ever imagine and that is going to be generational. That is going to have impacts down the road that you see I can't really fathom.
Mia:
That’s great, that's really good. And I think I'll so you know watching Bilbo, and Frodo for that fact, when they start out on their journey they didn't start out to become a hero, they were just one part. I think Gandalf said something to the effect of: it's not the great in the big things that make the difference is just the small light one life moving forward. I love that.
Speaking of that tribe, one of the conversations that you and I had was just a whole idea of the community of diversity that happens in the world of Tolkein. Can you speak to that whole idea?
Kevin:
Yeah, that is one of the things that drew me in the most outside of realizing that unexpected individuals can be a hero, was this community of of different kinds of, now in the story you have different kinds of humans, dwarves, elves, hobbits, dragons, and orcs and all of these different things. But it was the necessity of the differences of those groups that allowed the characters, the protagonist, to be able to be successful.
I mean everybody, as we were discussing, they all had gifts and talents, and often people wish they maybe had another person’s gift or talent, when lo and behold the way that you make the biggest impact is with your gift. But pairing that and blending it beautifully with other people who can’t. Seeing that in storylines and watching what was happening with the dwarves at first-and here you had Gandalf I mean is this wizard and that was so mesmerizing to me first and foremost. This wizard who had the magic, not this tiny little creature who didn’t have the magic, and the person with the magic help position Bilbo to be able to use his gifts and talents paired with the dwarves and as me move through the story, right, them needing to be able to get help from the elves, them needing to be able to to get help from you know the Shapeshifter (Beorn) and all these different things.
So how this impacted my faith and my spirituality was one of the things that really had me fully embrace God and Jesus was we were at a church one day and we were reading through Galatians (3:28) and Paul was talking about how church is supposed to be diverse. Up until that time period, I was still a little, I had a lot of pushback. My abuse happened in a supposedly household that was spiritual, christian-oriented, supposedly. So I had a lot of negative blockages and strongholds set up against religion and spirituality and so when we were reading through what Paul was talking about- how the church should be diverse, that honestly was the thing that probably pulled down the most amount of strongholds, because that was one of things I loved most about Tolkien. It was his ingenious way to show that without diversity we all can't accomplish our purpose, which is to be of service to other people.
Mia:
That's really good. And I think what’s super interesting, even if you scale back from elves, dwarves, dragons, all those things within The Hobbit, just looking at the dwarves themselves, just how incredibly diverse. Just looking at Óin, Dwalin, Balin, and Kili and Fili...you’re looking at royalty, the next succession in line. Then you’ve got Dori, Ori, and Nori, combining three different tribes and as comic relief with Bilfur, Bofur, Bombur...I just think it's interesting how intricate he made the character and diverse they were, just within their own race. And what they brought to the story when they decide to revolt against Thorin at the Battle of the Five Armies, who choose what and who they remained loyal to and that carries over into Lord of the Rings when they get to the Mines of Moria and they see how Balin has been killed. I love that. I agree, the diversity is amazing. I’m glad that this was able to speak to you and show you the bigger picture of the Kingdom of God.
Kevin:
I think with what our nation is going through today I think that this point and this principle of diversity is even more necessary, right. So even though these books are about war, then others about space travel and these things coming into, like Flash Gordon, you had Tolkien staying in this Fantasy realm (genre). Fast forward to today, where we're living in a nation that’s so divided. And today we're trying to figure out who's going to be president right now, right. We have this idea, there's a perception of, we want diversity, but at the same time you have people who are being diverse, but not being accepted, And so now more than ever, we need to go back to school and we really need to be sitting and listening and observing the truth behind why diversity is a necessity for us to be as helpful and to develop as a thriving community as possible. Because, if we are all the same that ends up being a pretty limited place emotionally, physiologically, and spiritually. I think it is so important that we continue to help let people see that true diversity and embracing that really is how we help each other Rise to place is a function that we can't without.
Mia:
I agree, I mean I feel like the Kingdom of God is... my grandfather had this little saying on his nightstand, “It's his only by embracing can we fly.” He was talking about angels, but it's talking about unity, appreciation for his diverse- people groups, talents, gifts, abilities. We see this in His kingdom come unity and we will never accomplish what the kingdom comes until there is an appreciation for it. He's writing this after his experience in World War I and it's part of his procesing his PTSD who he was he got from that experience and you can see it in his writing, it's like yes, they are diverse, unique races and individuals and we see that in the characters, they are so vastly different. But they get the Fellowship, they will never accomplish getting the ring to Mordor, unless they all work together. Even though they broke the Fellowship, it was still, how many times did Aragorn and the other Hobbits worry about Sam and Frodo even in their own journey, because they still felt part of the whole. Even though the Fellowship had split.
Kevin:
And I think that’s some of the some of the emptiness that so many people are feeling right now, is that with social media, with these computers in our pockets, where we have the ability to correspond more frequently than any other time in all of recorded history, but people are feeling more disconnected than at any other time in history because they are not really coming together for fellowship. There’s the idea of “Hey, we’re watching something on Facebook together or coming into a room where we’re watching a movie, but everybody’s on their phone.” The enemy has been sly in facilitating this separation...There’s all these ways that they could be great tools, but... My mental health professional friends, my counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist, talk constantly about the level of depression skyrocketing because people feel so disconnected with the increased usage of social media. And your word that you used, so powerful, is that fellowship piece. And so, yes differences,yes we are all coming together and the truth around coming together through love, right, which is why I think I had a lot of pushback on coming to my relationship with Jesus. It was under the guise of control right and then as I studied you know the Dark Ages and you looked at what the church did for hundreds and hundreds of years, where if you didn't convert to X form of Christianity, they just strung you up in the courtyard. And so for me, how could that be fellowship? How could that be love? So there was a lot of ways in which I think as we look at the theme, within the evil of what Tolkein was able to together, I think that delusion in the lies and the whispers of the enemy, that if if it doesn't go a certain way, then it's not going to be okay. And that's what this fellowship of hobbits, of humans, elves, and dwarves all coming together in their uniqueness but, for the truth of love is so important.
Mia:
You know what really struck me when you were saying that, if you think about the different elves- the Woodland elves vs. the Rivendell elves vs. Mirkwood elves, it’s like the church in a way. I think about how Rivendell was on the edge; they were fighting; they were welcoming; it was the Welcome (Homely) House. But then you have where Legolas is from, his father, Thranduil, he was so closed off- “Lock the gates, we're going to kill, we’re going to do this…” It's about power, it's about me and mine, it's about what I'm after, after the jewels that they have in the mountain, and I just was thinking about when you were talking about that, just such a good analogy for the church. And just different ways that Christians look at who we are and what our function is. Are we open and loving and helpful? And we're going to stay in Middle Earth and fight the fight or are we closing the gate, circling around, it's about ourselves and our small ‘k” kingdom that we’re developing? I just love that what you thought brought to mind, I wonder if Tolkein was intentional about that, if he saw that? Yeah, just a thought.
Kevin:
It was a really great thought.
Mia:
Another thought you brought up was the whole idea of generational battles and that continual fight between good and evil. Can you speak into where you’re seeing that in Lord of the Rings?
Kevin:
When it really stood out was in the movies, of Peter Jackson's version came forth and that they scroll back in time and it when Smegol that the story of how a Golem came into into play right, he goes fishing with his friend in the boat and then he finds this ring and the next thing you know you see this pattern of perversion, and this pattern of twistedness- but not like downright awful, terrible, scary. It was dripped in a little bit at a time a little bit of the time and it changed him and changed him.
For me, as I have a very deep, deep interest in looking at people's patterns and where they're coming from generationally. And as we're gaining a better understanding about the brain what we’re learning about epigenetics, just a really quick example. There was a study where they took mice- they took the mom and the dad and they made them afraid of the scene of cherry. So as soon as they smelled the scent, they were terrified. This was passed on for fifteen generations. Here’s the crazy thing, the first offspring from the mom and the dad were never hurt or traumatized to be afraid of the scent of cherry. So just the mom and the dad had this traumatizing experience with the scent of cherry and for a minimum of 15 Generations they just stopped the research because it just continued to go. And they had to stop someplace. So this ongoing generational pattern, we really have sin in our life, where does that really come from? Sometimes we can still struggle with the whole concept of humans- do we really have sin? Where does that really come from? And what is that in my own family? Looking at generation after generation after generation of alcoholics, addicts, and criminals? Like, holy cow or the age old saying of, “the poor stay poor while the rich get rich” we see these patterns. But what are they really?
Well I know when I spend time with people who are addicts and struggling with finances they talk a certain way, they think a certain way. More importantly, they behave a certain way. People who have money, people who are more healthy, we can even just look at it for health and wellness. The person who's eating at McDonald's twice a day, five days a week, and their choices and then what they teach their children and grandchildren. Those things are not just passed down through physical examples but it's also in our DNA. But the beautiful part to this though, and then what science is showing us. There's a really amazing cellular biologist by the name of Dr. Bruce Lipton, he's one of the leading experts in this field, you can instantaneously change this as well at the genetic code at the DNA level. And what has to happen is that you have to change your behavior. You can change the cells in your body with your thoughts and that has to be built upon with your behavior.
When I started reading The Lord of the Rings, realizing that it came after The Hobbit, looking at: here you have evil, still doing what evil’s trying to do, but so much of time it's the whispers and it's little lies, and it's little tweaks, and it's little perversions and it's little things here and there that build up to the grotesqueness of war that build up to the awful dynamics of a power and greed and all those things. But it is all little steps to get to that point. And I think Tolkien does such a great job of showing that these little steps and we often want to think that it's just some big bad guy that comes in but it's not it's all those little things that add up and build up. And that takes a person who could choose to make a choice to help other people or a better or an elf or whatever, but then makes a choice to be less helpful and to not be of service. And I think all of those happen with little decisions here and there.
Mia:
I think a really good example of exactly what you're talking about is Théoden and Wormtongue. Like you said, it's the little whispers in his ear. In the movies, you physically see him change. Once Gandalf starts whispering the opposite to Théoden and he starts believing it. That’s so true and fascinating. And I think especially if you get into the whole idea of generational curses- what is a generational curse and what is the impact, and biblically it says 3-4 generations. It's interesting to see that the science is saying its long, its way longer.
Kevin:
And really, what their conclusion is right now, is that there's probably not a limitation to it. That it will just continue to be facilitated so the structure of the DNA strands and telomeres all those different things are governed by the thought processes. And those can be shifted, those can be shifted and changed but only if you don't change your thoughts. So then, if we look at a family, if my parents are alcoholics or any person, the family does certain things. Why do certain families who are lifelong football fans for three generations,I'm new to the South, so that is why this obsession with football is fascinating. But if that was the source of fun and enjoyment and community and fellowship ultimately- it it's it's easy to see why we do that and why we were willing to pay a college football coach 8 million dollars a year, because the culture is so obsessed with finding this Fellowship in a way that we can come together and support each other and support our team, and all of those same similar things is so profound. If we look at health and relationships and finances, all of those similar things apply.
transcript Part 2
Mia:
Let’s return to that whole idea of the whispers of the enemy and believing a lie. Bigger than just that one situation with Wormtongue or Grima. Can you talk about where you’re seeing that also?
Kevin:
So, within the story, looking at Smeagol, where he starts to make that transition. First, Samwise is like “We can never trust him.” Then Frodo steps in and says, “What if? What if we can trust him? What if we can be kind to him? Maybe we can show him some compassion.” We can clearly see he’s suffering. Frodo starts showing Smeagol (kindness) and in an instant we see a shift. There’s this thing that starts to happen where Smeagol starts to want to please, wanting to be of service. But then in a blink, it goes back the other way. So there’s this generational dynamic that is so precarious- those whispers. In Peter Jackson’s version when we see him whipping back and forth in conversation with himself, we see he’s really struggling with both sides of the coin. And the emotion and depth behind that and he’s going both lines, both ways.
We all go through that, right? We all go through time periods where making choices that are for my higher self, to be of service, to do what God has asked me to do. Or I can go the other way a little bit, I’m investing time and losing focus listening to those whispers of the devil, which are, “You’re not good enough, who are you to do this? Who are you to think you can be happy? Who are you to have a good relationship with your spouse? Who are you to have family members who love you?” When you look at all of these lies that you’re not good enough, strong enough, not wealthy enough...all of these things that are not true, and there’s not enough evidence. What I love is that outside people can see it. One of the things I’ve struggled with throughout my life, especially with the abuse, is some body image challenges. My abuser, in addition to all of the things he did physically, he would make fun of me in a variety of different ways. He would point out things about my body. I was six years old when this was happening. But turning into a teenager, even when I was most healthy, my most fit, and the best athlete I had ever been, in my mind I would look in the mirror and see a chubby, overweight, unhealthy person. And none of that was true. My friends would talk about how good I would be at something and I couldn't see it, I couldn't hear it. I was locked into the lies of the enemy.
I look at the story of Bilbo in The Hobbit when he’s first leaving the house with the dwarves and it's raining and all of these different things. And the enemy is like, “Who are you…?” to all of these thoughts going on in his head. “You’re not good enough, you’re not strong enough. You can’t do what the dwarves can do. You can’t do what Gandalf can do, you don’t have the magic.” All of these things he’s doing to himself that are thoughts from the enemy. And none of that was true because look at what they accomplished- what we accomplish. Because look at those whispers- they’re so consistent and so pervasive that its hard to get beyond them, it's hard to see a light through the darkness of what those are.
Mia:
I think what’s super instereing is that it’s Bilbo’s voice that is able to call Thorin back from the edge at the Battle of Five Armies and remind him, “You are a king and you are going to bring your people back.” And he (Thorin) was able to live into that before he died.
Kevin:
And this is where community is everything. One of my spiritual mentors said one time, that has really changed my life is, “We like to think that we’re all so great. But once I get over my ego and self righteousness, I realize I didn’t even make me. I wasn’t even good enough to make myself here- we had to have two other people create the physiological material, we had to have God create our spirit to inhabit this physical experience.” And when he brings that up I realized that I’m not even that great, because I didn’t even make me. I think that’s such a powerful thing to realize that we need diversity of community to help us when we’re in a wobble, a word that I like to use for it. When I’m struggling with some negative thought processes, or I’m feeling disconnected from God...thank God for my angels and my earth angles, and my community and my fellowship. Because when I’m struggling personally, someone else can step in and say, “No, you’re actually doing a really great job with this. Or no, look at how many people you’re actually helping. Or, no, you don’t look like that.” We get so caught in this wobble and get this tunnel vision and all we’re hearing are the lies and whispers of the enemy. And that’s not true and we need the help o be brought back up out of that darkness.
Mia:
So true. That last thing we can talk about is Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey. It’s that whole process of starting from here and ending here- not only the plot that changes, the character changes, who you become because you don’t start out a hero. Can you talk about your favorite part of who’s taking the Hero’s Journey and what about their journey speaks to you?
Kevin:
Yeah, within the world of Tolkien, if you really read the books and consistently read and you look at the similar storylines within the Bible we see these patterns repeated over and over. We have to discover our destiny- we want to think we know what we’re going to do. In today’s era we do a disservice to our children, we say, “Wouldn’t it be great to be this? And wouldn’t it be great to be that? “ So much of that comes from the fear of the parent needing the child to do well financially and wanting to be in a position where they’re not struggling. But I look at every person I know and every successful person emotionally, physically, psychologically, spiritually, none of them are doing what they thought they were going to be doing when they were children...I know someone who said at ten they were going to be a doctor or dentist, but that is not the bulk of us. We can get caught in the idea that what culture says is successful, healthy, happy, what we should be doing or not doing, but that Hero’s Journey requires us to have experiences we probably didn’t want to have.
And some of my non-believers say, “If God is responsible for the good things, then God is also responsible for the bad things. And if he’s responsible for winning a million dollars then he’s also responsible for you tripping over a stick and hitting your head and dying.” And so there are some interesting conversations that come with that, but in the Hero’s Journey, so many of our challenges come from dealing with other people who are lost in their whispers of the enemy.
I believe we all have free will so when someone says that God made a bad thing happen, or this person did a bad thing to this other person, I believe a person can get lost and believe and do to other humans things they weren’t designed to do, because they’re lost and the enemy has a hold on them. I look at my own abuse as an example, and I don’t believe that God made that abuse happen. That individual chose with his free will to do things to me that were not helpful and of service. Without that experience my Hero's Journey would be completely different. I don’t want to say that I wouldn’t be helpful or that I wouldn't have wanted to help other people but there is no way that I would have had the passion or obsession and the true commitment that I do without having had that happen. Today my profession is that I own stem cell clinics all over the country and help people heal and regenerate and these amazing things. Did I know that‘s how I was going to help people? Absolutely not. But I knew at six, the seed was planted for me to want to help other people. And I just didn’t know what that was going to be ,but things happened along the way that I couldn't imagine was going to...those are the things that shifted and became who I am today.
Mia:
I agree, it's very much like the Hero’s Journey- having an inciting incident that pushes you off, you have all these challenges to challenge it, and then you have the Elixir of Life...you are a living example of the Hero’s Journey.
Kevin:
We don’t know what that’s going to be, right? Again, what I got off track with is and what I really wanted to hone in on is through the media we have this idea that I want to be the Arnold Schwartzenegger superhero. Or in today’s world, for the younger generation, is the Marvel comics, all the comic book heroes. But the delusion behind that thought is that you have to get bit by a radioactive spider or be warped into some weird sub-dimensional place or whatever...probably none of those things are going to happen. But what you can do as an individual, and probably my favorite story and I’ve not thought about it like this before, is the story of David.
We hear about these amazing people who were not probably thought to be powerful or helpful but he said, let’s take it another step further. What about the day on the hill when Jesus or the disciples fed 5,000 people? And he said imagine if that little boy wasn’t there that day to give the bread from his lunch. Who would have thought that that little boy was a part of feeding 5,000 people? And he said, now, let’s take that one step further, for every person that thinks that unless they're pulling off an Elon Musk or Oprah or unless they’re doing these grand things you're not helpful, he said what if mom didn’t get up that day and bake the bread to put in that little boy’s lunch? So when you add all of the ripples and all of the ways that help people beyond, in ways we never imagined, she was the hero of that story that nobody ever talks about. She was the heroine of that story that no one ever talks about because she got up that morning and baked her son’s lunch. Who then took his lunch to the hill to listen to Jesus speak. And then they were able to share that bread. Every little thing we do, just like the whispers from the enemy, but the opposite end of the spectrum, is how God created an opportunity for us to rise to great heights- doing those little things that we don’t think are significant- are the deal breakers.
Mia:
I think that’s amazing. And a great example of that is Biblo thinking his purpose in life is caring for his grandmother’s doilies, protecting her glory box. And think about Sam, he’s listening at the eaves, “I’m not dropping any eaves!” And he’s the one who actually destroys the Ring. And it's just insignificant to Sam, he is just carrying Frodo, when Frodo can’t.- to him it’s not significant. So it’s the little things, and it's the little things that add up to a significant thing.
Which character speaks to you most in Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit?
Kevin:
You know to be honest, I really like Gandalf the most. The reason he’s my favorite is because he was consistently coming in and brought hope. He was the beacon and the light in so many situations that brought hope. Whether it was turning the trolls to stone or coming in with the horsemen after they got banished from their king who was perverted in his mindset about who was helping and who wasn’t. He wasn’t the main character, he had all this magic, we would think that he should be the one who should always be the one taking the role, the most important parts, but then when you think he's the one- he actually says, “I’ve got to go away now and you need to be accountable and responsible for living your purpose.“ His role never overshadowed anybody else and he bolstered and supported everyone’s strengths and then when he was needed he could come in and help. That wasn’t something I felt that I needed or had during those time periods as I was being abused every single day. The daycare provider wasn’t going to help me because she was distracted, disconnected and wasn’t paying attention. Not that my parents wouldn't have wanted to help me, but they didn’t know what was going on. The teachers didn’t know, so I felt like I was lost in this place of no one is really here to help me. So then, when I watched The Hobbit for the first time and saw that there are mentors out there who can do that and as I did meet my mentors throughout my life, it’s been very similar. They did come in to support me when I needed support but then let me know when I needed to be accountable and go down my own path, my own journey. If more of us had those experiences from the get go, I think we would be fulfilling our spiritual destiny and roles so much more fully.
Mia:
I agree. And that’s a good segue into mine, Éowyn. She was loyal to her king and saddened by what she saw. I’ve often beat myself up for always being a second in command and not thinking it's important. And sticking with things, and seeing the best and hoping for the best. And the fact that she was the one who brought down the Witch King (of Angmar) as a female in the series. They’re not just good looking ornaments on the side, but she was a warrior in her own right, It just kind of spoke to the warrior spirit that I have within myself. As a young woman and even now, in my 40s, that still really speaks to me. That I don’t have to be ultra feminist, woman power, I can be strong in my own, quiet way, and still have a major impact on building Kingdom.
Kevin:
Major impact. And I love C.S. Lewis too- The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, was very influential as well. For me, the older I got, the last five years in particular, my studying, my obsession with my faith, I can look back at those stories now and I’ve even read some really great side pieces that talk about the places of contention between Tolkein and Lewis. They were great friends up to a certain point and they discussed that, Lewis said, “I don't want to oversaturate my writings with Jesus’ teachings and with the church.” And Tolkein was like, “It's part of the process. You can’t separate those things.” And I think when you read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and watch them and compare them to The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and the other stories from C.S. Lewis, you can see those differences. Some similarities but Tolkein, I feel there are times where you can just interchange the names in the Bible with some of the names in LOTR, it's so similar and we’re grateful for it.
What brought this conversation up for you and I, after I became a believer and rewatched The Hobbit not too long after that- it struck me (and I get pretty emotional and can get teary eyed about this) God was there the whole time. And I didnt’ believe that, I didn’t know that because in my household it was pretty much, “we'll let you decide what you want to do with your faith.” And we didn’t really talk about God and one of those was there. I’m grateful that it wasn’t from a negative place, like “you have to be of this faith “ But when i look back and when I learned that J.R.R. Tolkein was devout in his faith and I started looking at the story and breaking the story down that God was talking to me then. Helping rescue me then even though it took me another thirty years to get there, before I was there all the way- there were so many other strongholds and blockages that I had to have softened and broken down before I got there all the way. It made sense why I was so obsessed with The Hobbit. It wasn’t just the storyline, it was because it was an example of God’s truth and His love through that story. And now I believe that. And whether I’m making that up in my own mind, or not I don't know but, all that matters is that’s what it is for me. It was powerful. And I think that’s why I wasn't attracted to Conan the Barbarian as the hero or those big macho men, as the superhero and the saviors of the day, I was just so obsessed with the characters in Tolkien’s world that he created because it’s God’s Word.
Mia:
I agree. I think that’s exactly how I felt. Thank you so much for your time today and just getting to geek out with me over Tolkein- Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. We’ll definitely have to make time to watch them together and pick it apart even further- the nuanced things that aren’t the big picture and characters in the plot.
Kevin:
Yeah, I would love that. Thank you so much for having me. It really means alot that you let me share that experience. And I hope that what people can hopefully take from this is realizing that community is everything. Diversity is super important to help us see what we are, or are not doing. But most importantly it literally is the little things and we all have a choice to be able to focus on being of service to other people whether using our gifts and talents. And we have to be open to realize that it may not be the way that I fantasize about it in my head, maybe it's making my son’s lunch that day that is the superhero outcome of the day. The more I think we can fall in love with that and the most we stay connected to Christ and help other people when they’re in their wobbles and struggling.
Mia:
I agree. Thank you so much Kevin. Have a great day!
Kevin:
You too. We’ll talk to you soon!
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